Sunday, September 30, 2018

Christine Ford Transcript of Testimony Before Congress Part Two of Four


Now it’s Whitehouse’s 5-minute turn to interrupt the questioning.
MITCHELL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Dr. Ford, The Washington Post reported in their September 16th article that you did show them therapist notes. Is that incorrect?
FORD: I don’t remember physically showing her a note.
MITCHELL: OK.
FORD: Perhaps my counsel did. I don’t — I don’t remember physically showing her my copy of the note.
MITCHELL: OK.
FORD: But I…I just don’t remember. I’m sorry. I have retrieved a physical copy of those medical records.
MITCHELL: OK, thank you. You also attended individual therapy. Did you show any of those notes to the reporter from The Washington Post?
FORD: Again, I don’t remember if I showed her…like, something that I summarized, or if I just spoke about it or if she saw it in my counsel’s office. I can’t – I… I don’t know for sure, but I certainly spoke with her about the 2013 record with the individual therapist.
MITCHELL: And Brett Kavanaugh’s name is not in those notes, is that correct?
FORD: Correct.
MITCHELL: OK. In reading The Washington Post article, it mentions that this incident that we’re here about contributed to anxiety and PTSD problems with which you have struggled. The word contributed, does that mean that there are other things that have happened that have also contributed to anxiety and PTSD?
FORD: I think that’s a great question. I think the etiology of anxiety and PTSD is multifactorial. So that was certainly a critical risk… risk that…we would call a risk factor in science, so that would be a predictor of the symptoms that I now have.
It doesn’t mean that other things that have happened in my life would have… would make it worse or better. There are other risk factors as well.
MITCHELL: So have there been other things, then, that have contributed to the anxiety and PTSD that you suffered?
FORD: Well, I think there’s, sort of, biological predispositions that everyone in here has for particular disorders. So I can’t rule out that I would have some biological predisposition to be, you know…
MITCHELL: What about…
FORD: … an anxious type person.
MITCHELL: … what about environmental?
FORD: Environmentally, not that I can think of.
MITCHELL: OK.
FORD: Certainly, no – nothing as striking as that event.
MITCHELL: OK. In your interview with The Washington Post, you said that you told your husband early in your marriage that you had been a victim of, and I quote, “physical abuse.” In your statement, you said that before you were married, you told him that you had experienced, quote, “a sexual assault.” Do these two things refer to the same incident?
FORD: Yes.
MITCHELL: And at either point on these two times, did you use any names?
FORD: No.
MITCHELL: OK. May I ask, Dr. Ford, how did you get to Washington?
FORD: In an airplane.
MITCHELL: OK. It’s — I ask that because it’s been reported by the press that you would not submit to an interview with the committee because of your fear of flying. Is… is that true?
FORD: Well, I was willing. I was hoping that they would come to me, but then I realized that was an unrealistic request.
MITCHELL: It would’ve been a quicker trip for me.
FORD: Yes. So that was certainly what I was hoping, was to avoid having to get on an airplane, but I eventually was able to get up the gumption with the help of some friends, and get on the plane.
MITCHELL: OK. When you were here in the mid-Atlantic area back in August, end of July,
August, how did you get here?
FORD: Also by airplane. I come here once a year during the summer to visit my family.
MITCHELL: OK.
FORD: I’m sorry, not here. I go to Delaware.
MITCHELL: OK. In fact, you fly fairly frequently for your hobbies and your — you’ve had to fly for your work. Is that true?
FORD: Correct, unfortunately.
MITCHELL: You — you were a consulting biostatistician in Sydney, Australia. Is that right?
FORD: I’ve never been to Australia, but the company that I worked for is based in Australia, and they have an office in San Francisco, California.
MITCHELL: OK.
FORD: I… I don’t think I’ll make it to Australia.
MITCHELL: It is long. I also saw on your C.V. that you list the following interests of surf travel, and you, in parentheses “Hawaii, Costa Rica, South Pacific islands and French Polynesia.” Have you been all to those places?
FORD: Correct.
MITCHELL: By airplane?
FORD: Yes.
MITCHELL: And your interests also include oceanography, Hawaiian and Tahitian culture. Did you travel by air as a part of those interests?
FORD: Correct.
MITCHELL: All right. Thank you very much.
FORD: Easier for me to travel going that direction when it’s a vacation.

Klobuchar gets their 5 minutes now.
MITCHELL: Thank you. Dr. Ford, we’ve talked about the day and the night that you’ve described in the summer of 1982. And thank you for being willing to do that. I know it’s difficult. I’d like to shift gears and discuss the last several months.
FORD: OK.
MITCHELL: In your statement, you said that on July 6th, you had a, quote, “sense of urgency to relay the information to the Senate and the president.” Did you contact either the Senate or the president on or before July 6th?
FORD: No, I did not. I did not know how to do that.
MITCHELL: OK. Prior to July 6th, had you spoken to any member of Congress? And when I say Congress, I mean the Senate or the House of Representatives or any congressional staff members about your allegations?
FORD: No.
MITCHELL: Why did you contact the Washington Post, then, on July 6th?
FORD: So, I was panicking because I knew the timeline was short for the decision and people were giving me advice on the beach. People who don’t know about the processes, but they were giving me advice. And many people told me, “You need to hire a lawyer,” and I didn’t do that. I didn’t understand why I would need a lawyer. Somebody said, “Call the New York Times, call the Washington Post, put in an anonymous tip, go to your congressperson.” And when I weighed those options, I felt like the best option was to try to do the civic route which is to go to my congressperson, who happens to be Anna Eshoo. So I called her office and I also put in the anonymous tip to The Washington Post. And neither — unfortunately, neither got back to me in — before the selection of the nominee.
MITCHELL: You testified that Congresswoman Eshoo’s office contacted you on July 9th, is that right?
FORD: They contacted me the date that the nominee was announced, so that seems likely what…
MITCHELL: Had you talked to… about your allegations with anyone in her office before the date of July 9th?
FORD: I told the receptionist on the phone.
MITCHELL: OK. On July 10th, you texted The Washington Post again, which was really the third time, is that right? Second date, third time.
FORD: Let’s see. (Ford goes off Mic and converses with her attorney a moment)
FORD: Correct.
MITCHELL: And you texted — been advised to contact senators or New York Times, haven’t heard back from Washington Post. Who…
FORD: Yes.
MITCHELL: … advised you to contact senators or The New York Times?
FORD: Beach friends…
MITCHELL: OK.
FORD: … coming up with ideas of how I could try to get to people because people weren’t responding to me very quickly. So very quickly, they responded to that text for what… unknown reason that once I sent that encrypted text, they responded very quickly.
MITCHELL: Did you contact The New York Times?
FORD: No.
MITCHELL: OK. Why not?
FORD: I wasn’t interested in pursuing the media route, particularly. So I felt like one was enough, The Washington Post, and I was nervous about doing that. My preference was to talk with my congressperson.
MITCHELL: OK. The Washington Post texted back that someone would get in touch… get you in touch with a reporter. Did you subsequently talk to a reporter with The Washington Post?
FORD: Yes, under the encrypted app and off the record.
MITCHELL: OK. Who was that reporter?
FORD: Emma Brown.
MITCHELL: OK. The person who ultimately wrote the story on September 16th?
FORD: Correct.
MITCHELL: OK. Did you talk to any member of Congress – and, again, remember Congress includes the Senate, or the House of Representatives or any congressional staff members – about your allegations between July 10th and July 30th, which was the date of your letter to Senator Feinstein?
FORD: Yes, I met with Congresswoman Eshoo’s staff. And I think that’s July 18th, the Wednesday, and then on the Friday I met with the congresswoman herself.
MITCHELL: OK. When you met with her, did you meet with her alone or did someone come with you?
FORD: I was alone. She had a staff person.
MITCHELL: OK. What did you talk about with Congresswoman Eshoo and her staff on July 18th and the 20th?
FORD: I described the night of the incident and we spent time speaking about that. And I asked her how to… what my options were in terms of going forward and how to get that information relayed forward. And I also talked to her about fears of whether this was confidential information. And she talked about the constituent confidentiality principle.
MITCHELL: Thank you.
Sen. Coons gets their 5 minutes.
MITCHELL: Dr. Ford, we were talking about you meeting in July with Congresswoman Eshoo.
FORD: Yes.
MITCHELL: Did you talk about your allegations with any Republican member of Congress or congressional staff?
FORD: I did not. Where I live, the congresswoman is a Democrat.
MITCHELL: OK.
Was it communicated to you by your counsel or someone else, that the committee had asked to interview
you and that — that they offered to come out to California to do so?
Michael Bromwich (one of Ford’s lawyers who also repped former DOJ Andrew McCabe)  interrupts and objects to the above line of questioning as a violation on attorney-client privilege. It’s decided it does not and the questioning proceeds.
MITCHELL: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
GRASSLEY: OK. Proceed, then.
MITCHELL: Before July 30th, the date on your letter to Senator Feinstein, had you retained counsel with regard to these allegations?
FORD: No. I didn’t think — I didn’t understand why I would need lawyers, actually. That’s what…I just didn’t know.
MITCHELL: A lot of people have that feeling. Let’s talk about the letter that you wrote on July 30th. You asked Senator Feinstein to maintain confidentiality, quote, “until”…
BROMWICH INTERJECTS: Wait until she retrieves it.
MITCHELL: Oh, I’m sorry.
FORD: OK. I’m just trying to look for it, which one?
BROMWICH: I think it’s — I think it’s the (inaudible).
FORD: OK.
Grassley asks the clock be stopped while they look for the item.
FORD: Oh, I found it.
MITCHELL: OK. You asked Senator Feinstein to maintain confidentiality “until we have had further opportunity to speak,” and then said you were available to speak further vacationing in the Mid-Atlantic until August 7th. Is that correct?
FORD: The last line, is that what you’re — I’m — I’m now just catching up with you, sorry. I’m a little slower. My mind is getting a little tired. “I am available to speak further, should you wish to discuss. I am” — yes, I was in Delaware until August 7.
MITCHELL: OK.
FORD: And after that, I went to New Hampshire and then back to California.
MITCHELL: Did you talk with anybody about this letter before you sent it?
FORD: I talked with Anna Eshoo’s office.
MITCHELL: OK. And why did you talk to Congresswoman Eshoo’s office about that letter?
FORD: Because they were willing to hand-deliver it to Senator Feinstein.
MITCHELL: OK. Did anyone help you write the letter?
FORD: No.
MITCHELL: OK. After you sent your letter, did you or anyone on your behalf speak to Senator Feinstein personally or with any Senate staffer?
FORD: Yes.
MITCHELL: OK.
FORD: I had a phone call with Senator Feinstein.
MITCHELL: OK. And when was that?
FORD: That was while I was still in Delaware, so before August 7th.
MITCHELL: OK. And how many times did you speak with Senator Feinstein?
FORD: Once.
MITCHELL: OK. What did you talk about?
FORD: She asked me some questions about the incident.
MITCHELL: OK.
FORD: And I answered those questions.
MITCHELL: OK. Was that the extent of –  the gist of the conversation?
FORD: Yes, it was a fairly brief phone… phone call.
MITCHELL: OK. Did you ever give Senator Feinstein or anyone else the permission to release that letter?
FORD: Not that I know of, no.
MITCHELL: OK. Between the letter date, July 30th and August the 7th, did you speak with any other person about your allegations?
FORD: Could you say the dates again?
MITCHELL: Between the letter date of July 30 and August 7… so, while you were still in Delaware… did you speak with any other person about your allegations?
FORD: I’m just trying to remember what dates that.
Grassley interjects and clarifies that this question is to the “exclusion of any lawyers that she may have spoken with…”MITCHELL: Correct.
FORD: Correct — I think correct, then. I was interviewing lawyers…
FORD: …but I was not…
MITCHELL: OK.
FORD: … speaking personally about it.
MITCHELL: Aside from Lawyers that you were seeking to possibly hire to represent you, did you speak to anybody else about it during that period of time?
FORD: No.
MITCHELL: OK.
FORD: I was staying with my parents at the time.
MITCHELL: Did you talk to them about it?
FORD: Definitely not.
MITCHELL: OK. So would it be fair to say that you retained counsel during that time period of July 30th to August 7th?
FORD: I can’t remember the exact date, but it was the — I was interviewing lawyers during that period of time, sitting in the car in the driveway and in the Walgreens parking lot in Rehoboth, Delaware. And I’m trying to figure out how the whole system works of interviewing lawyers and how to pick one, et cetera, so.
MITCHELL: You testified earlier that you had… you didn’t see the need for lawyers. And now, you’re trying to hire them. What made you change your mind?
FORD: It seemed like most of the individuals that I had told, which didn’t… the… the total number… the total was not very high. But those persons advised me to, at this point, get a lawyer for advice about whether to push forward or to stay back.
MITCHELL: Did that include Congresswoman Eshoo and Senator Feinstein?
FORD: No.
MITCHELL: OK.
Sen. Blumenthal gets his 5 minutes.
MITCHELL: Thank you. And we’ve heard this morning several times that you did take a polygraph, and that was on August the 7th. Is that right?
FORD: I believe so. It was the day I was flying from BWI to Manchester, New Hampshire.
MITCHELL: OK. Why did you decide to take a polygraph?
FORD: I — I didn’t see any reason not to do it.
MITCHELL: Were you advised to do that?
Bromwich objects again on the basis of privileged communications. Grassley instructs Ford to answer to the extent which would not violate privilege.FORD: Based on the advice of the counsel, I was happy to undergo the polygraph test, although I found it extremely stressful, much longer than I anticipated. I told my whole life story, I felt like, but I endured it. It was fine.
MITCHELL: I understand they can be that way. Have you ever taken any other polygraphs in your life?
FORD: Never.
MITCHELL: OK. You went to see a gentleman by the name of Jeremiah Hanafin to serve as the polygrapher. Did anyone advise you on that choice?
FORD: Yes, I believe his name was Jerry.
MITCHELL: Jerry Hanafin.
FORD: Yeah.
MITCHELL: OK. Did anyone advise you on that choice?
FORD: I don’t understand the — the — yeah, I didn’t choose him myself. He was the person that came to do the polygraph test.
MITCHELL: OK. He actually conducted the polygraph, not in his office in Virginia, but actually, at the hotel next to Baltimore Washington Airport. Is that right?
FORD: Correct.
MITCHELL: Why was that location chosen for the polygraph?
FORD: I had left my grandmother’s funeral at Fort Lincoln Cemetery that day, and was on tight schedule to get a plane to Manchester, New Hampshire, so he was willing to come to me, which was appreciated.
MITCHELL: So he administered a polygraph on the day that you attended your grandmother’s funeral.
FORD: Yeah, correct.
MITCHELL: OK.
FORD: Or it might have been the next day. I spent the night in a hotel, so (inaudible) the exact day.
MITCHELL: Have you ever had discussions with anyone, besides your attorneys, on how to take a polygraph?
FORD: Never.
MITCHELL: And I don’t just mean countermeasures, but I mean just any sort of tips or anything like that.
FORD: No. I was scared of the test itself but was comfortable that I could tell the information, and the test would reveal whatever it was going to reveal. I didn’t expect it to be as long as it was going to be, so it was a little bit stressful.
MITCHELL: Have you ever given tips or advice to somebody who was looking to take a polygraph test?
FORD: Never.
MITCHELL: OK. Did you pay for the polygraph yourself?
FORD: I don’t…I don’t… I don’t think so.
MITCHELL: OK. Do you know who did pay for the polygraph?
FORD: Not yet, so.
MITCHELL: Did…you…you have the hand-written statement that you wrote out. Did anyone assist you in writing that statement?
FORD: No, but you can tell how anxious I was by the terrible handwriting.
MITCHELL: Did you – we touched on it earlier – did you know that the committee has requested the…not only the charts from the polygraph test, but also any audio or video recording of the polygraph test?
FORD: No.
MITCHELL: Were you audio- and video-recorded when you were taking that test?
FORD: OK, so I remember being hooked up to a machine, like, be… being placed onto my body, and being asked a lot of questions, and crying a lot. That’s my primary memory of that test. I don’t know.  I know he took laborious detail into explaining what he was going to be doing, but I was just focused on kind of what I was going to say and my fear about that. I wasn’t listening to every detail about the… what… whether it was audio- or video-recorded.
MITCHELL: Well, you were in a hotel room, right?
FORD: Correct.
MITCHELL: A regular hotel room with a bed and bathroom?
FORD: No, no, no. It was a conference room.
MITCHELL: OK.
FORD: So I was sitting on a chair, and he was behind me.
MITCHELL: Did you note any cameras in the room?
FORD: Well, he had a computer set up, so I guess I assumed that he was somehow taping and recording me.
MITCHELL: OK. So you assumed you were being video and audio recorded?
FORD: Correct.
MITCHELL: But you don’t know for sure?
FORD: I don’t know for sure.
MITCHELL: OK, thank you.
Recess for lunch is called.
MITCHELL: Good afternoon.
FORD: Hi.
MITCHELL: When we left off, we were still talking about the polygraph, and I believe you said it hasn’t been paid for yet. Is that correct?
(UNKNOWN SPEAKER/ Possibly Bromwich): Let me put an end to this misery. Her lawyers have paid for her polygraph. As is routine.
MITCHELL: Dr. Ford, do you expect the price of that polygraph to be passed on to you?
FORD: I’m not sure yet. I haven’t taken a look at all of the costs involved in this. We’ve relocated now twice, so I haven’t kept track of all of that paperwork, but I’m sure I have a lot of work to do to catch up on all of that later.
MITCHELL: I… I get you have a lot going on, and you’ve had that for several months, but is it your understanding that someone else is going to assist you with some of these fees, including the cost for your polygraph?
FORD: I’m aware that there’s been several GoFundMe sites that I haven’t had a chance to figure out how to manage those because I’ve never had one done for me.
MITCHELL: And I’m sorry, several what?
FORD: GoFund…
(UNKNOWN Speaker repeats for Ford): GoFundMe.
FORD: GoFundMe sites that have raised money, primarily for our security detail. So I’m not even quite sure how to collect that money or…and how to distribute it yet. I haven’t been able to focus on that.
MITCHELL: OK. In your testimony this morning, you stated that Senator Feinstein sent you a letter on August 31st of this year, is that right?
FORD: August 31st let me see.
FORD: I sent her a letter on July 30th. And I don’t have the date. I’d have to pull up my e-mail to find out the date of her e-mail to me saying that – it was right before the hearings -that she was going to maintain the confidentiality of the … of the letter.
MITCHELL: Say that again, it was right before the hearings, then what?
FORD: That’s my memory, but I could look it up for you. If you would like the exact date, I could pull it up on my e-mail.
MITCHELL: Yes, I just…I want to make sure…
(UNKNOWN Speaker interjects): what was the date, counsel?
MITCHELL: I want to make sure I understood what she — you said.
(UNKNOWN Speaker, possibly Ford’s Counsel responds): That document’s been turned over to — in response to a request for documents. You have it.
MITCHELL: Thank you, counsel. I want to make sure I understood what you said. Was it your understanding, it was going to be kept confidential up until right before the hearing?
FORD: It was my understanding that it was going to be kept confidential period.
MITCHELL: Period? OK. Between your polygraph on August the 7th and your receipt of the letter from Senator Feinstein, did you or anyone on your behalf speak to any member of Congress or congressional staff about these allegations?
FORD: I personally did not.
MITCHELL: So my question was, did you or anybody on your behalf.
FORD: I don’t — what do you mean, did someone speak for me?
MITCHELL: Somebody that worked — is working with you or helping you. Did somebody at your behest on your behalf speak to somebody in Congress or staff?
FORD: I’m not sure.
MITCHELL: OK.
FORD: I’m not sure how those exchanges went, but I didn’t speak to anyone.
MITCHELL: OK. Is it possible that somebody did?
FORD: I… I… I think so, it would be possible. I… I’m guessing it would be possible, but I don’t know.
(Bromwich objects again): Excuse me. You’ve all asked her not to guess, and now you’re asking her what’s possible. So I think if you want to ask her what she knows, you should ask her what she knows.
MITCHELL: Is that an objection, counsel?
Bromwich confirms it is an objection.
MITCHELL: I’ll have the chair rule on that.
FORD: I don’t know what the… I don’t understand.
Grassley responds that the question should be answered unless there is a legal reason not to. Questions resume.
FORD: So I don’t totally understand the question, but I didn’t speak with anyone during that timeframe other than my counsel.
MITCHELL: OK. You’ve said repeatedly that you did not think that that letter that you wrote on July 30th was going to be released to the public, is that correct?
FORD: Correct.
MITCHELL: OK. And is it true that you did not authorize it to be released at any time?
FORD: Correct.
MITCHELL: OK. Besides your attorneys, did you provide — you provided that letter to Senator Feinstein, is that correct?
FORD: I provided her a letter on July 30th.
MITCHELL: We’re talking about the July 30th…
FORD: OK.
MITCHELL: … letter.
FORD: OK.
MITCHELL: Did you… and you provided that letter to Senator Feinstein, correct?
FORD: (says something not picked up by the Mic)
MITCHELL: Is that a yes?
FORD: Yes.
MITCHELL: And you provided the letter to Representative Eshoo to deliver to Senator Feinstein?
FORD: Yes.
MITCHELL: Besides those two individuals, Representative Eshoo and Senator Feinstein, and your attorneys did you provide that letter to anyone else?
FORD: No.
MITCHELL: Do you know how that letter became public?
FORD: No.
MITCHELL: OK. After that letter was made public or leaked, did you reach back out to The Washington Post?
FORD: I reached out to The Washington… well, they were continuously reaching out to me and I was not responding. But the time that I did respond and agree to do the sit-down was once the reporters started showing up at my home and at my workplace.
MITCHELL: OK.

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